Beginning in the Spring 2011 season, MMDL will be replacing the two 601 games with three doubles 501, DIDO in ALL DIVISIONS. A significant percentage of the league membership has expressed strong feelings in support of this change and the Board of Directors has made the difficult decision to implement this after the upcoming Fall season. IF YOU FEEL THIS IS NOT A CHANGE THAT YOU APPROVE OF, please let your opinion known to your Area Director, preferably with an email.

Post below any comments or questions.

Just wondering...from the results of the surveys, the "significant percentage" who wanted the change were not the majority, right?

I believe it was 586 votes against the change and 519 for the change....pretty close....not really a mandate.I know in the A and Super A div.most hate the 601's....but I believe the lower divisions do like it.

I believe that because it was close and that it was well received in Super A, that the board was willing to try it. But I will say there is hesitation to jump right into it. We actually considered starting it this fall, but there was not enough support for it to pass. It was discussed some more and it was proposed for the Spring as a trial of sorts, one season, to try it.

Oh ok. I didn't realize it was a trial sort of thing although I'm not sure how you'll collect enough feedback on it within a season. I know the vocal minority on here have seemed in favor of the change but I'm not sure how that translates to the rest of the league. I can say that for my own opinion I wish there was some way to compromise between 501s and not having an even point total for a match opening the door for a tie. (I know that it is total points that matter usually but I still like the definite win-lose scoring system for each week.)

Also, I think the survey asked about single in-double out 501s. Maybe the result would have been different for DIDO?

Posted on behalf of Jeff Rotcavich

Hello, i just read about the change for the 601's going to a 501 format.. ???? so we are going to a 12 pt match instead of an 11pt match and if so what about ties???? who wants to see a 6-6 tie match.. i do realize the night out is fun but we still like to compeat in these games.. so unless someway of making this so there would be no possible tie, id have to say im against going to the 3/501's and keeping it the way it is 11 games instead of 12 games.. thanks for hearing me out ,its just my opinion.. please shoot me an email on your response thanks Jeff R.

I side with those that want to keep an odd number of games games to avoid ties. If it seems like the higher leagues like it and the lower leagues don't, perhaps you should try the format changes with the upper level leagues first and then work your way down.

I'm curious, for those of you who don't like the format change because of the potential for a tie, what is it exactly that makes the concept of a tie so negative? For me, It's like a bet. Would you rather lose the bet and pay or take the push? If your down 6-5, would you rather walk away losing 6-5 or have a shot at making it even. Orrrrrrrrr, is it the potential of going down 7-5 that is so frightening? I 'm just curious because no one has yet to say why they don't like it, just that they don't.

I think some teams will not like it for a couple of reasons. You can "carry" a less skilled player more easily in 601 trips, but in 501 pairs they would be exposed more. Some teams like to give everyone a game that turns up and sometimes the 601 is where they play them. Also I would guess lower division teams will object to making the night even longer, one more game and it requires doubling in.
Trevor

Agreed to a point about the weaker player Big T, but in theory wouldn't most teams have that player? Obviously you can only hope to match up with the other teams' weaker arms as well..

That said, the weaker player is NEVER going to develop into a better player if they don't throw more darts, right?

I'm not sure that the tactical reasoning behind 'burying' your worst shooter in a game of 601 is a sound reason for maintaining the format. For this reasoning to make sense the following analysis would need to be proven wrong:

Team 'A' has one strong shooter, one decent/middling shooter and one weak shooter. Team 'B' has three moderate/decent shooters. The hope is that the strong shooter in conjunction with the decent shooter can carry Team 'A'. This is the scenario that defenders of the 601 format for tactical reasons generally bring up.

Now imagine this scenario in the 501 setup. Team 'A' is now divided into Team 'A1' and 'A2'. 'A1' is the strongest shooter with our original weakest shooter. 'A2' is now the second strongest shooter from our original Team A with a mediocre shooter who would have been a member of the follow-up team to the original 'Team A'. They are now matched-up against 'Team B1' and 'B2' which consists of 'Mediocre-Mediocre' (B1) and Mediocre-Better/Good (B2).

Are the odds of winning either match really so much worse for Team A in the second situation than winning the original 601 matchup? I don't see how. In both cases the determining factor is going to be the play of the strongest player, not the play of the weakest player. The 501 format will alleviate the absence of rhythm/boredom as a result of long waits between turns that the 601 format almost always generates. This will probably be to the stronger player's advantage, as it allows for a shooter's more natural rhythm to assert itself.

I could very well be wrong but I can't imagine any scenarios where the correct match-up of a 'buried' weak shooter in the company of a stronger player in the 601 format can't be replicated in the 501 DIDO format.

As to the argument that 3 501 DIDO will lengthen the night, I don't see how the addition of two extra doubles will add that much to the night. 2 more doubles and an additional 301 points shouldn't take more than an extra 15 minutes MAX, and that assumes that the standard of play remains the same between 501 and 601. My guess is that overall standard will improve in relation to the 501 format owing to more natural rhythms, less time taken to find the guy who went to order a beer after his turn in 601 (or even went out for a smoke!) etc. The overall time taken for a match should remain more or less the same by my estimation.

Here's one view on the "hide the weaker player" theory about 601.

Last night, summer league..playing the 1st place team who has 5 shooters to start. They took 3 strong players in the 1st 601, the 2nd one was a strong player (arguably their best), a weaker player (who I would consider a C shooter), and the phantom player who might be there late if at all. We are at a B level of play.

Our 1st 601 was myself (B/C player), our weakest player who is D/C, and a B player. Our 2nd 601 was 3 of our top 4 players.

Now on paper we should split the 2 and that is what happened..BUT

We had a lead of 42 to 102 in the 1st 601 and the opponent wired the D16 shot for the win. Our B player took it out.

The 2nd 601 we have a lead of 40 to 215 and left it odd..couldn't fix it in about 6-8 turns and ended up losing.

Not quite what one would expect, especially where in theory we should have crushed the 2nd game and lost it after blowing many chances.

I don't know it off my head but pretty sure there is something in place for Super A that considers ties in the regular season. If not I have an idea for one that's easy to do.

There are 3 reasons I DON'T like the diea of the change after 20+ years of playing league, and for the full year in both leagues.

1) The difficulty of getting a full team to travel not only to our bar for an away match first, then to another bar, then home again after 10pm, but to ask them to stay for a total of 1500 dbl-in and dbl-out points as far as 10+ miles from the home bar, waiting for only 2 players to find their double in numbers - just doesn't cut it. we'll lose even MORE people to not showing up

2) The fact that a team needs to coordinate the leave out-numbers and scores between *3* players figuring who's next shot makes the team understand each other better for coupling in other games, and for playoffs lineups. It's a VERY good thing.

3) The bars will make more money from drinking, but the players will need to score more 01 matches, some of the players on teams can't do this at all (Love 'em for at least making the effort though), and if we add an extra game each match the people who CAN score well will be kept longer at matches. Some people ("real adults" with morning jobs as they call themselves) will leave early, and there will be another match available to start a dispute between teams over score problems.


Good luck All!

Actually 4 reasons, this was the most important one ...

The actual point spread between teams at the playoff start can be an additional 14 point gap between 1st and last places.

This means that a total of 168 points can be won if a team never loses a match, and the closest 2nd place to them would be 24 points less (144 for the challenged). Then we'd have to use the system of who won more against each other during the season, etc ...

If there are 3 divisions in the playoffs (E1, E2, E3 say) the points between 1st and 3rd in 2 different divisions can be DRASTICALLY uneven. A team with 100 points could end up playing a team with 150+. Nothing like getting wiped out hard Your first week of the playoffs to ruin a great season.


Good luck all!

Why would having a higher point differential matter? Its not like its going to change the skill level of the teams involved.

Also I don't agree with your point total assumptions since no team is going to all of a sudden win every match 12-0. Currently 1st place teams average about 7 points a match which is roughly 65% of the total points available, meaning by the same math they would win about 9 of the extra 14 points available. 4th place teams average about 5.6 points a match roughly 51% of the total points available and on average would pick up 7 of the additional 14 points. So really on average adding 14 points would only increase the differential between 1st and 4th by 2 points.

Why is it DIDO and not straight IN? I know you are trying to make it like tournaments but the game of 501 is straight in not bouble in.
Is this a typo?

It was made DIDO to keep it inline with the way the 601s were DIDO. If you dont get on, your going to be at a disadvantage, which in some cases will help teams points wise.

Although I agree that concerns about ties are common I have run into both players and captains that support the change. Most players I talk to want 601 gone but are unsure that this is the answer. 601 is not fun with three players time between shots drags the game. nobody gets into a good rhythm and people fall asleep. 501 will tighten up that aspect and make the games smoother, quicker and more fun. Personally I worry about the adding another game and two more doubles to the lower divisions strictly because of the time it will add to the match. However, as a former Super A player I support the 12 point match. In two seasons playing the 12 Point match we only had two ties and they were against the same team, in the same season.

As far as adding "non-skill" games, I couldn't disagree more. There is a lot of strategy and skill that goes into _01 games. One of the strengths of my game is to "setup" the out shot. I very rarely leave my teammate or myself without an out. Players that take the time and make the effort to learn how to "setup" for an out are very valuable to a game. I am not the most skilled player out there but when I play someone that plays the, "get on if you can, pound a number if you can, get out if you can" strategy, it makes me smile because I know I have a shot. When they make the mistake of leaving themselves a non-out or undesirable out I know all I need to do to guarantee myself a shot is to use the strategy that I have been taught to drop in and steal a game. Twice this Tuesday players on the opposing team left themselves a 159 and 169 in an _01. Both times I smiled because I know that we have six darts before they have a shot. If a player wants to beat players at a higher skill level all they need to do is learn the strategy behind the _01 game it is what makes the league competitive. In cricket the higher skill player wins games regardless of strategy in instances. There is more margin for error the longer the game lasts. Cricket can be dragged on by a player with greater skill. Whereas in any _01 the game cannot be dragged on. A shot can not be intentionally busted if the other player is on an out. Everyone loves cricket because it is fun and people are used to playing it on non-league nights. However, the international game of darts is 501. The best players in the world do not play much Cricket if any.

I definitely agree with Dan about there being strategy in 01 games. I have often beaten higher skilled players because I work at knowing my outs and getting us to an out. I almost took out a 160 out one night because I had our 601 player make sure he left it at that. Then I hit both trip-20's and just missed the double 20. I am not a great shot but just that strategy put us in the position to win with my three darts. I watched a more skilled shooter bust on 180 because he either wasn't paying attention, or because he shot the wrong number once he had 60 left. Some of the A players I play in the summer with have taught me not to shoot at numbers where if I trip I can bust like that.

I have lost to more less skilled cricket players because they miss by such a wide margin and splash other numbers that count than I do. When I miss it isn't by a lot and so is usually in a number next door not two numbers away. Strategy didn't help me in any way in those games.

One thing about the whole change to 501 I would have an issue with is the lower divisions. An added DIDO game for them might make for a longer night. I would think just going to SIDO would be better for those three games. I think those games would go much quicker. As far as ties go, I am sure there are additional tie breakers that can be used other than most wins. Head to head is one that comes to mind. Least amount of forfeited points (shorthanded, score sheet errors).

I like the idea of the 501 as long as it is SIDO. DIDO just adds another game at the start of the night where everyone is still cold that you have to double in with. Otherwise I welcome the chance to try something different.

Mike, i disagree, by using the DI start, you cant count on being on and gone. The double in can be a huge advantage. If it was a straight start i would agree with you.

I think DanD nailed it when he said that most people want to get rid of 601 but they aren't sure if this is the best way to do that, especially in the lower divisions. I think there could be a real problem with how adding another DI/DO game affects the length of the match depending on what division you are playing in. Perhaps this isn't a "one fix fits all" type of situation and the board should consider having variations based on skill level/division. That's not going to help the issue of a possible tie but I don't see any easy way to fix that.